More and more car manufacturers these days are becoming interested in the recurring revenue model, with Volkswagen’s ID.3 BEV being the latest to have an optional ‘motor power upgrade’ that you can pay for either monthly or with a ‘lifetime’ payment.
As the BBC reports, this option is now available in the UK, with customers offered the option to pay £16.50 per month or £165 annually, or opt to shell out £649 for what is reportedly a ‘car lifetime’ subscription.
It appears that this subscription service has been in the works for a while already, with it being offered first last year in countries like Denmark, following which it appears to be rolled out in other countries too. The software unlock changes the maximum motor output from 150 kW to 170 kW, which some users report as being noticeable.
Regardless of whether you find this to be a good deal, the concept of Car-As-A-Service (CAAS) has becoming increasingly prevalent, with the BBC article referencing BMW’s heated seats subscription and Mercedes’ acceleration subscription. Considering that all the hardware is already in the car that you purportedly purchased, this is sure to rub people the wrong way, not to mention that from a car tuning perspective this seems to suggest that third-party tuners don’t need to apply.
Thanks to [Robert Piston] for the tip.
Really – people are hacking cars as long as cars are a thing. How hard can it be to buy the cheapest model and bypass all the subscription nonsense with modified software? Probably harder than Rigol oscilloscope, but i bet not impossible. Game console manufacturers are at war with hackers for a long time now and so far they always lost.
True, but bricking a console one thing. Bricking a car is a whole otherer story.
WHEN dear HAD, when will we get an edit function?
Never. But we get vertical videos now.
This,
And an ability to login so user credentials don’t have to be entered every time a post is made.
Please?
I disagree with both of you.
However, I DO want for replies to go to the place your are replying.
And that used to work, so that it so often doesn’t work anymore must be an ‘improvement’ then.
I think you can log in with WordPress and stay logged in — as far as the credentials go. That shouldn’t expire.
Editing: we still have not found a plugin that’ll work with anonymity, still allow edits, and pass a security audit. We’ve gotten 2/3, though! If anyone knows of a good one: editor@hackaday.com
Well but console is just single board with CPU and stuff. Car is much more so you will most likely never brick “car” just some of it’s many subsystems, replacement of which is always much cheaper the the whole car.
The thing with a car beyond the crazy expense if you do bork it in a way you can’t recover is the warranty and liability if you have any problems with your very expensive box on wheels – actually putting your hacked car on the road, even if the hack amounts to nothing more than a stock manufacturer configuration enabled just without paying them for it could be legally problematic for you if anything ever happens.
Also many of these vehicles if not all of them will come with over the air updates, if your car isn’t stock you could either miss out on the update that stops thieves trivially stealling your car, or worse have the update logic still in place and try to work but brick the vehicle because it wasn’t in a stock state…
The solution here has to be buy and maintain older cars, build your own, or go looking for a company that still respects the customer and buy that one, even if the vehicle is otherwise less impressive.
In the EU, Euro 7 standards will require tamper proofing of vehicle software and confirmation by vehicle inspectors so you’re unlikely to get away with running your hacked vehicle on the road unless you can put it back into a stock state for the inspection.
VW is champion is this (dieselgate)
A lot of jurisdictions are now coming up with (or starting to enforce existing) legislation that makes it illegal to break software locks, and even more so to provide information on how to do so to others.
Look to see whats going on where you live and write to your representatives about this.
A console has to run a variety of software a car not so much. Also you can make it so the firmware is tailored to a specific VIN number so one firmware image won’t work with another car. There are all sorts of nasty tricks you can do to lock down a system that are not practical on a console. Even if you are able to hack it. Don’t plan on going to the dealership ever again.
Ok as a reply to many here in this thread
I am in Europe.
1) Road legality – nobody checks software after crash – it just don’t happen – only thing that is checked is if the car has valid inspection certificate
2) Technical means to stop hacking – depends on how expensive the subscription is, if it makes sense, ways can be fund – even if that requires replacing chips with burned fuses, that refuse to boot something not signed bu correct certificate (see for example how Tegra boot process works and what is the difference between locked / unlocked chips)
3) Inspection – well after seeing what can pass inspections and how to do that – if you want to, it is possible, there is always a way – also nobody checks software now. Cars with modified maps in their ECUs pass just fine – no problems. Completely removed DPF? Well lets say it’s harder, but possible as well (should absolutely not be possible, but is).
4) Dealership – oh don’t even get me started on that – i bought my last car new – 4 years warranty – and i am happy it is over now – its bigger PITA to go to dealership for warranty (for which they will do everything possible, including blatant lies to claim this and that is not covered) than to go somewhere else and pay cash to get something fixed. Dealerships are absolute hell.
And last OTA – oh my got – this should be illegal. Plain and simple – OTA for cars should be illegal. Maybe infotainment, ok fine – but anything else just NO. It creates culture, where you start shipping software like it is mobile app. That is BAD.
To summarize – i will do everything but pay subscription for anything, that already has the hardware in and is just soft locked. One time unlock i may consider – will not like it but may consider – subscription? NEVER. It is not a service, it doesn’t create recurring expenses on the side of manufacturer. And i know it is inevitable – many people are willing to do that so the corporations will force that on everybody. There is no way to stop it, only way is to get around it.
CAAS looks like something created by mobsters on a CAR-tel meeting.
On the bright side, this means there’s more things for us to hack for free upgrades, a bit like a Siglent/Rigol scope.
I still absolutely hate it though.
Except your Rigol / Siglent cannot hit and kill bystanders if you brick it.
Brick my VW and it wont either
On test equipment it makes some sense – a huge amount of the cost of them is the calibration and certification they will perform, selling the same hardware without that cheaper is just logical for all involved. If you can’t afford or don’t need the calibrated platform you can still have decent hardware, and should you push it beyond the level it was sold as handling any errors are your problem.
The stuff they are doing this rent seeking on in cars however really does not – maybe you could justify an extra cost to the 100% identical hardware platform if they were unlocking a really higher wear and tear super aggressive sport mode that actually would cost the company more as they are offering 30 years of ‘free’ servicing and battery replacement on their EV’s or something – likely going to be taking you for a ride pricewise still, but at least then there is some justification and service for the price.
“which some users report as being noticeable” — so the same phenomenon as people claiming their overpriced Monster cables were worth the money because they don’t want to admit they were ripped off?
It is 13.3%, so it should be noticeable, but in reality how much it is needed for a average car driver if you already have 150KW, which is not a small value.
Those who want it, can still pay, it is normal for years, you had the same engines with many power outputs and you needed to pay for more. You may look it the same way.
If it was just a software switch then it was always awful and should have been destroyed from orbit.
Its just even more obvious now that its clearly just a simple software switch and its still evil.
Rent-seeking European manufacturers struggling to remain profitable seem to be hell bent on losing the last shred of their business to cheap Chinese manufacturers. If a strong EU-China automotive tariff is implemented then expect CaaS to go away, but car prices will increase as well.
Long past time for someone to develop and open-source car.
I agree for the most part but I think it will be subsystems first.
Can’t EU do something about this CaaS BS?
Subscription based engine performance, with a motor that “starts” with the push of a button. Flip-flopping mirrors that are more likely to fail then normal mirrors more costly to replace and show object that are closer than the appear. A vehicle of which every iteration of the model contains more plastic that bends when you touch it, unless it’s very cold, then it just breaks. Hidden camera’s behind the company logo that constantly amaze/annoy the driver behind it at every traffic stop because it’s flipping the logo up/down to enable a clear view for the camera. Crazy blinding headlights of which one shuts of when taking a corner. Look silly and nobody knows the true advantage of this. Fancy rims (or caps) that are just a tienie wienie wider than the tire so that eventually you’ll scrape them against the edge of the pavement during parking leaving a very visible scratch that’s unfixable. Nice and comfy adjustable seats, hard top, safety glass everywhere. Disc brakes on all the wheels. Windshield wipers, with an interval, adjustable. You can even wet your windows to clean them with those wipers when it doesn’t rain and some models even have this for the rear window as well.
And all in a shiny white package so that you’ll see all the dirt all year round even if you just returned from the car wash. All those fancy features nobody really needs and makes a car less feel like a car.
As you might understand, I’m not ready yet to give up my model T yet, I just adjust very slowly to any form of automotive progress.
I despise subscription anything. Subscriptions are death by a thousand cuts. Anything I can’t purchase directly is a hard sell.
so youll opt to shell out the £649
If I pick the £649 option but lease the car. Is it a subscription again? :thinkingface:
I might shell out the 649 but only if it couldn’t be turned off by someone other than me.
Yes, a leased car is on a subscription plan.
Or the £0 option…
see what I dont get is if there is a £649 one time fee,
How is that any different than choosing to pay the extra fee for an optional turbocharger for a bit more power on an IC car?
Electric motors are almost always capable of quite a bit more power output than the stated rating. Theyre intentionally underpowered to reduce failure rates. People have used CRV IMAs which are only rated for 10kw by honda at 40-50kw in several diy EV conversions.
The difference is that one gets you additional hardware installed and the other is just software gimping of the car.
What’s all the fuss? You can also buy the 170kw version up front in one payment just like any other option on the MEB platform. Or even if you buy the newer models 2nd hand. If the previous owner had that option, it stays with the vehicle.
Speaking as a Cupra Born owner, the platform has really matured with the current 5.x software.
Probably because they’ll eventually use the “just a license” excuse to steal more money from you to keep it lifetime or not.
We’ve already seen that exact thing happen with SAAS products killing lifetime software.
This isn’t just about one car—it’s emblematic of a broader issue. Electronic devices are now deeply embedded in every corner of society, and we’re sliding down a slippery slope to hell. When you buy something, it should be yours. Not leased, not remotely controlled, not subject to someone else’s terms. Ownership means possession, and possession means control. Anything less is a quiet erosion of autonomy.
https://youtu.be/Lgh8e0dW0eQ
where did all the comments go?
Good question. :Thinking Face: Some things are too close to home to have out in the open I guess…
This is why I don’t buy new cars and will fight tooth and nail to never own an EV.
You fool. If you think this is exclusive to EVs then you aren’t thinking. All cars are rolling computers now.
I am far from a fool. I can make my own ECU that will make the engine run. It might not meet emissions but I can get it drivable.
A fool is someone who buys a car with a component like a battery that that will last about ten years then cost more than the car is worth to replace it.
You should listen to Louis Rossmann tear apart this self-destructive mindset.
We cannot keep going, “your dumb for buying X, shoulda got Y if you didn’t want to get screwed”. It just let’s those companies get off and the users blamed, then that wedge allows more companies to do it until it gets you too.
If your car doesn’t pass emissions then it’s entirely possible for you to find trouble with the law. So even your option is a non-starter.
It looks more like they’re trying to use the knowledge they got from the old VW emissions scandal to play a little trick on the government and the taxman. Your car will be stuck in low emissions mode until you pay for the upgrade, so presumably liable to lower levels of the various emissions based European car taxes. How will governments in turn react? Accept it? Insist that cars are liable for further tax when upgraded? In which case whose responsibility is it to inform them of the change? Or treat all cars sold as having the higher potential power? Is the upgrade even legal in California?
Its an EV, how bad can the emissions get? Will it refuse to drive through a Taco Bell drive thru in low emissions mode?
I think this development also needs to be viewed in the context of the fact that more and more private individuals are LEASING cars instead of BUYING them. “Car-as-a-Service” is already the trend of the times. Buying a new car and paying cash, to drive it until it literally falls apart – that’s becoming increasingly rare for new car purchases. It will, of course, be interesting to see how these vehicles fare on the used market …
but whether you lease or buy, the cost per month/year is roughly the same
Leasing is more expensive, because you’re paying a middle man.
have you done the math?
It will, of course, be interesting to see how these vehicles fare on the used market …
That is of course the point: they don’t.
The used car market is not profitable to the car manufacturers because old cars compete with new cars for sales. For the car manufacturers, if they could destroy every car that is older than the mandatory warranties, they would, so they could sell new cars. The only problem is that new cars cost so much that only 15-20% of the market can afford them.
So, if they can drop the up-front cost to consumers by selling cars as service, they can sell people more new cars, and it doesn’t matter that the cars don’t last past 8-10 years because such cars don’t contribute to the bottom line of the company anyhow.
Philip K Dick anecdotally predicted a future where appliances require fees and wont work without payment. The appliances also act as AI debt collectors.
Ugly car, and an even worse business model.
Glad I got my VWs back when VWs were sane. Won’t make the mistake of acquiring one of these monsters :-)…
The “pay a flat fee for a software unlock of some extra horsepower” has been around for quite a while. However, I don’t like the precedent of making a subscription out of it. Subscription fees make sense for something that delivers new content (e.g. satellite radio or cable TV), but not for hardware functions.
My 18 Camry lost Remote Start function from the keyfob after I missed subscription payments.
This is the endgame for personal transport. Don’t own the car, just pay for the ride, like the world prior to 1910 or so when urban vehicle ownership was uncommon.
That said if I pay to own something I don’t want someone remotely sabotaging or even interrogating it for any reason.
Most people ranting about EVs don’t realize that pubic transport is usually cheaper and more effiicient.
But ultimately useless if it doesn’t go to where the passenger wants to go.
“Usually cheaper” implies I have to walk between stops.
“public transport — cheaper or efficient” … But not convenient to get from here to there, or to fishing spot, back country, or available when I want to get to work, or back and forth to next town, load up the bed with plywood, or load up some R/C planes and head to the flying field, or haul gun stuff to our gun club, or .. ….. You see, just not practical for things people do.
That depends entirely in which part of the world you are in. Where I am (Greenwashing Sweden) it’s invariably cheaper to drive than to take public transport as a single person. Add a passenger and there’s no way public transport can compete. Obviously this is ignoring investment and maintenance costs for the car, but in my and most other car owners cases here you own a car because you need it, not because it’s fun to have.
Or in other words if I didn’t work somewhere where public transport is completely unavailable, whilst I live somewhere where public transport is expensive but mostly works well despite the authorities doing their best to ‘improve’ services by chopping routes, then owning a car would be a burden and unnecessary luxury. Helps that I got the most economical car available in 2012, and there hasn’t been a better one since thanks to Euro 6 regs…
It costs me 12 cents per km to drive my car. It costs me 2.50 to take the bus, regardless of distance.
If I take the bus downtown and back, it costs about 40-50 cents per km depending on where I want to step on or off the bus. At night the price doubles. I would have to consistently travel more than 20 kilometers round-trip on the bus before it would cost less than driving my own car, but unfortunately most locations I would want to visit are just within the 10 km range, or outside of the city where the flat fee no longer applies.
Plus the fact that the bus takes twice as long to get there, and it’s never available exactly when I need it, adding up to an hour of waiting time on top, whereas with my own car I can just go whenever.
I’m guessing you have never lived outside the core of a major city and that city hasn’t neglected its public transportation because there are many locations untouched by buses, subways, and trams.
“Considering that all the hardware is already in the car that you purportedly purchased, this is sure to rub people the wrong way”
you could say the same for PC, it has all the hardware needed to run almost any software, that doesn’t mean you can ….
It’s entirely human to believe that – you’ve paid for an item so asking for more money simply to ‘unlock’ extra features which are already present seems just wrong. But that’s exactly how computers work, you buy the computer then to ‘unlock’ some features you need to buy software, although the subtle difference is the software wasn’t already installed on your computer, so you get the feeling you’re paying for something you didn’t physically have already.
Software to a computer is like fuel to a car – you add something that requires effort to make in order to do something useful with the hardware.
The software doesn’t “just exist” so that you could assume every computer should have every piece of software by default.
Meanwhile, a car is engineered to have certain specs, and if then limited and unlocked by money, that is simply rent-seeking. Limiting access to something the user already has in order to extract more money out of them.
every computer sorta does have every piece of software, you just click download to enable it. And plenty of computer come with various trial version of software preinstalled, but if you wan to keep using it you need to buy a license
If you have to download it then it doesn’t have it. 🫣
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